Bruce Chamoff | Pioneering Podcast Networks - Mick Unplugged

Episode Transcription

• Episode 15 Transcription

  Intro: Are you ready to change your habits, sculpt your destiny, and light up your path to greatness? Welcome to the epicenter of transformation. This is Mick Unplugged. We'll help you identify your because so you can create a routine that's not just productive, but powerful. You'll embrace the art of evolution, adapt strategies to stay ahead of the game, and take a step toward the extraordinary.

  So let's unleash your potential. Now here's Mick.

  Mick Hunt: Welcome to an extraordinary conversation on Make Unplugged where we explore the depths of innovation, resilience, and the power of Because. Today, we're diving into the world of podcasting, a realm that's transformed voices into echoes of change and inspiration. And joining us today is a pioneer, a visionary who saw the future before it unfolded, and the architect behind the World Podcast Network. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor to introduce you to mister Bruce Chamoff. Bruce, welcome to the show, my man.

  Bruce Chamoff: Hey, Mick. Thank you for having me.

  Mick Hunt: Dude, so much I wanna talk to you about. I mean, starting the first ever podcast network, what was the method to your madness of seeing that need and and creating the the network?

  Bruce Chamoff: I like how you put that as a need. Yeah. I mean, there was a need at the time in 2005 when podcasting started becoming bigger. And that is a lot of people don't know that it's been around almost 20 years now, but a lot of people are just noticing podcasting because of the pandemic because Right. That exploded with the pandemic.

  Bruce Chamoff: But I always wanted to be a radio DJ, and this is the story I tell everybody that asks. I stick to the story. When I was back in college in the eighties, and they had no openings for DJs. So I went on. I graduated college.

  Bruce Chamoff: And then in 2005, when I started my podcast, which was called the Fresh Music Series because I'm also a musician and I'm promoting other other artists, I just felt, you know, I'm a I'm a web developer, and now I'm a podcaster. Why don't I find a way to market other podcasts and have one website where people can come and just view, you know, view different podcasts, look at specific episodes, and subscribe. And I thought, what do I call this thing? Is it the directory? No.

  Bruce Chamoff: Not really. I felt TV network, radio network, podcast network, and that's how it came to be. Yeah. Within the 1st 2 months, we had 20 podcasts.

  Mick Hunt: That's amazing. And and just so that the audience understands the context now, how many podcasts are on the World Podcast Network today?

  Bruce Chamoff: Over 1100. Wow. I'm

  Mick Hunt: one of them. I am one of them.

  Bruce Chamoff: You are. You are. Yes. Absolutely.

  Mick Hunt: Good stuff. So in those early days, I can only imagine that you face challenges. What were some of the challenges that you faced, and how did you journey through those challenges?

  Bruce Chamoff: So back then, we did not have social media. There was no Facebook. And every other social network that went out I believe see, we were we were in web 2.0 at that point, but I don't think social media. I think Facebook came out in 2006 or 7, and that's when people started noticing. So marketing and online marketing was more of a challenge because social media now, it has bridged a gap that we didn't have back then.

  Bruce Chamoff: So you you had to rely on search engine optimization. And for people who have websites, they know you need to get on the first page of Google to get any type of traffic. So we did that. Whatever the search engine optimization strategies were back then in 2005, which obviously have changed since then, that's what I was employing. And, of course, we didn't have sharing because sharing goes to social media, which we didn't have.

  Bruce Chamoff: So you just had to do whatever marketing you could. However, I will say that when we started in February of 2006, I was on Long Island, and, there was a big paper in Long Island called Newsday. They didn't they did a a spread on the podcast network 9 months later. So November, we were in there like this we were like the second page of the of the newspaper. It's mind blowing.

  Bruce Chamoff: So that's how we got marketed.

  Mick Hunt: That's wild. And and look at where it is today. Right? That's crazy. So on the Mick Unplugged podcast, we we really talk about being fueled by your because.

  Mick Hunt: Right? Like, I love Simon Sinek and start with why, and I believe why is kind of the starting point. Your because is your reason, and that's your action that drives you forward. What was your because back then? What what was your reason for doing what you do?

  Bruce Chamoff: My because or my reason was because, first of all, I am a I'm a very creative person. And being a creative person, I like I'm always thinking about how to improve things. And when I say things, I mean anything from a process to a tangible item. And I never stopped trying to improve things, and that's the type of person I am. I always look for whatever's next, and I figure out the plan on how to get to it and get to it quickly in this competitive world.

  Bruce Chamoff: And, really, that's it. I wanted to just succeed on my creativity. It drives me.

  Mick Hunt: I love it. That's amazing. So let's talk about some of that creativity that you have. Like, tell the tell the world about Bruce a little bit. What's some of the creativity you have in your back pocket?

  Bruce Chamoff: Well, I'm a musician and songwriter. I play 4 instruments, piano since I was 6, actually, saxophone since I was 9, and I taught myself the bass and the guitar. So I I actually create music. And right here, besides this being a podcast microphone, this also doubles as a a vocal mic when I'm recording music. You can't see it behind the World Podcast Network banner, but I'm in my own recording studio.

  Bruce Chamoff: Okay. And way way back in the day, I say, 1995 when we weren't doing podcasting, when the Internet was so young, I was walking into recording studios. And and I was watching the recording engineer move all the knobs and dials and the faders up and down the boards. And I'm like, I can do that. I don't need to pay I don't need to pay 50 to $100 an hour to do that.

  Bruce Chamoff: But I didn't have the money to buy that equipment, so, of course, you had to pay the hourly fee. Once it all became software, that was it. I just learned quickly how to be an engineer, how to channel my own music, and become a producer. So that's another part of my creativity. And then, of course, being a web developer, I just I love building websites.

  Bruce Chamoff: I've been doing it since the same year, 1995, when web design was became web design, and websites were very ugly compared to the way they are now. And in that in that time, I've also worked on the websites for the NBA. And I'm not even a basketball fan, but I worked on the NBA, then National Enquirer, and the Radio City Rockets. So that's where we are.

  Mick Hunt: That's good stuff. So I can totally see how you paralleled into podcasting. And and let's go into podcasting now. And I wanna ask a couple of questions for people that are thinking about starting a podcast. And and literally, you know, my podcast is just a few months old.

  Mick Hunt: And so I was one of those people. And for me, it felt almost intimidating of what do I need to start? How do I start? How do I know if I should do this? And I wanna start with that last question because one of my very good friends, Daniel Song, and I'll give Daniel a shout out here, tried to convince me that everyone should have a podcast.

  Mick Hunt: Right? I was like, I don't know if everyone should have a podcast. But for those who are just thinking of starting, Bruce, what should you do? Like, how do you know you want a podcast, That you should do a podcast?

  Bruce Chamoff: I'll say it very simply. You need a passion, and that's it. And that'd be everybody has a passion. And let me give you a very good example. First of all, I I agree with your friend, Dan.

  Bruce Chamoff: And this is what I say, and I compliment this is gonna compliment what Dan said. Everybody's a podcaster, but some of us speak through a mic. Think about that. Okay? You I mean and especially you, Mick.

  Bruce Chamoff: I mean, you're great at podcasting. So Dan made a very good call telling you you should you should have a podcast. And sometimes people yeah. There were some people out there that probably wouldn't make good podcasters, but here's a good example. This just happened on Easter.

  Bruce Chamoff: K? We had Easter 2 weeks ago. I went to a family gathering, and it was, not really a relative of mine, but sort of kinda like an in law relative. It's it's hard to explain. But now I live in New Jersey, and he is a big New York Yankees fan.

  Bruce Chamoff: And that day, the Yankees were playing the Houston Astros, and he just kept talking about all the stats of every single player on the Yankees of this year. I mean, Aaron Judge, Anthony Rizzo, all these guys, Jean Carlos Stanton. And, I mean, I knew about that, but I'm I'm not passionately into the Yankees as much as he is. However, he doesn't have a technical bone in his body. I don't think he knows the definition of the word podcasting.

  Bruce Chamoff: So he wouldn't be a podcaster, but he has a passion. And I think he would make a great podcast. I just don't think on a technical level he would. He knows how to speak. He's got his passion.

  Bruce Chamoff: He he came to Easter wearing a Yankees jersey and a Yankees hat. What does that tell you? Everybody's got a passion. Right? And when you go to a party or a family gathering, you know, you're sitting there, you're talking to a family member or a friend or a client about something that you really are into.

  Mick Hunt: Mhmm.

  Bruce Chamoff: Why why can't that be a podcast? That is the first step you need to become a podcaster. All the other stuff like buying the microphone and editing, that comes later. But if you don't have a passion, you're not then you're not ready for podcasting.

  Mick Hunt: Okay. So passion, first thing you need. So once you've decided, okay, I have the passion. I want a podcast. What are the next steps that you need to take?

  Mick Hunt: Right? So, again, there are a lot of people that are listening that are considering starting a podcast, and and this episode is to help those folks. So you have the passion. What's next? What equipment do you need to have?

  Mick Hunt: What's that setup look like?

  Bruce Chamoff: So that's the next step. I mean, I think podcasting, you can take it 2 different ways. I'll tell you which way I take it after. But you can either plan your episodes, and a lot of people do that, or you can just wing it from episode to episode. Me, I'm a combination of both.

  Bruce Chamoff: So for people that have podcasts already and have, let's say, writer's block, like, they don't know what the next episode's gonna be about, The first thing I tell people, whether you're a new podcaster or a seasoned one, brainstorm on your episode titles. Don't think about the description. Plan it out, but plan it lightly. Don't spend too much time planning. Just write down any episode that's part of your passion that comes to mind.

  Bruce Chamoff: You can put it yeah. Put it in the spreadsheet, on the PowerPoint slide, whatever it is. Write it down on pen and paper. Have about 5 episode titles. Make sure they're all related because once you get an audience, they're going to expect you to stay along that topic.

  Bruce Chamoff: Once you do that, then I think you're ready for the equipment. The the biggest question I get is how much is it gonna cost me to set it up? And the first question I have is probably about 50 to a $100 at the most, and that is the the microphone. Okay? A lot of people will tell me also, well, I don't have that kind of money.

  Bruce Chamoff: Can I just use my phone? Yes. You can. And if you have your phone, you have your smartphone, you can do that and you can literally start a podcast for free. But it doesn't really sound quite as professional as, let's say, this side might.

  Bruce Chamoff: I mean, the microphone you have looks great. It sounds great. When you're talking into a phone, it's got that that radio, that little radio voice. You know? Yeah.

  Mick Hunt: And

  Bruce Chamoff: you don't want that. If you don't have the money, start right away from your phone, but expect the quality to be a little bit mediocre. And if you have about $50, buy a mic like this. That's it. From that point on, you download Audacity and you record right into Audacity.

  Bruce Chamoff: It's free, and you can edit that way. And that's it. And then if you need your hosting platform, that could be Anchor, Bud Buzzsprout, Libsyn. For people that don't have money, Anchor is free. And, really, that's all you need.

  Bruce Chamoff: So in order to get into podcasting, you need a microphone or a phone, editing and recording software, I suggest Audacity, and, of course, your platform, which could be Anchor or Buzzsprout or one of those other ones.

  Mick Hunt: Or Transistor.

  Bruce Chamoff: A Transistor. Right. There's so many out there.

  Mick Hunt: Correct. Alright. So now you have all of that. You've got your equipment set. You've got your software set.

  Mick Hunt: Now you gotta record.

  Bruce Chamoff: Yes.

  Mick Hunt: Alright. So, again, for the listeners that are new to podcasting, what does Bruce recommend from the setup, like, you know, the the length of the podcast? Is it solo? Is it guest? Right?

  Mick Hunt: Like, walk us through that theory and thought process as well.

  Bruce Chamoff: It depends on your audience. And I tell people this all the time. When you're podcasting, technically, it's about you and your guests, but it's for your audience. So what does your audience expect? Do they expect 5 minutes or do they expect 60?

  Bruce Chamoff: I mean, Joe Rogan, he's got the $1,000,000 deal with Spotify, and his podcast episodes go anywhere from 1 to 3 hours. I can't listen to that. Right? So I'm not a Joe Rogan fan. I'm not because it's too long.

  Bruce Chamoff: But there are people out there who can take that. You know? So I say know what your audience is. If your audience wants 15 minutes, it's 15 minutes. It's that simple.

  Bruce Chamoff: I mean, my my podcast episodes on become a successful podcaster, they go between 10 to 20 minutes. I don't go over 20. And if I had to go over 20, I just do a part 2.

  Mick Hunt: That's excellent advice right there.

  Bruce Chamoff: Thank you.

  Mick Hunt: And that's how I built my podcast more so for what would I listen to. And so that's why mine are under 30 minutes because we're working during the day or Exactly. You know, the attention span is is here. And it's like, I'm gonna give 30 because that's what I would personally listen to. K.

  Mick Hunt: So we talked about the the newbie. Now let's talk about the seasoned podcaster. And maybe now they're trying to figure out, how do I grow? How do I monetize? And then how do I potentially start ranking on Apple or Spotify?

  Mick Hunt: So let's let's go through that. So if you're a seasoned podcaster, what's Bruce's advice for and let's just start with growth. So getting the name out there, growing that podcast more.

  Bruce Chamoff: It's funny you ask, Mick, because I just recorded a podcast episode this morning on what I'm about to say, and it's gonna come out next week. So pick a social network. Pick 1. I know that you are on Instagram and you're doing really well on Instagram, so that's, like, amazing that you have a big following. And I'm very I'm very proud of you for that.

  Bruce Chamoff: My following is not that big on Instagram, but I'm I have a bigger following on LinkedIn. So first of all, pick 1 or 2 social networks, and that's it. Don't go crazy with everything. Like, you don't if you're on TikTok and YouTube, that's it. Stop.

  Bruce Chamoff: Okay? But I'm gonna I'm gonna give a tip on that too. You're on Instagram. That's great, and you're doing really well. I mean, let me ask you, Mick.

  Bruce Chamoff: Do you have other social networks that you market your podcast on?

  Mick Hunt: LinkedIn. So I'm very strong on LinkedIn as well.

  Bruce Chamoff: And that's great. And you have 2. Right. I mean, we we all we're on all the social networks, but we we should be focusing on 2 to market a podcast. And with that said, you also have to know again, I was I'm going back to audience.

  Bruce Chamoff: Where is your audience? Right? Mhmm. Now you are doing great on Instagram, but let's say you go to Facebook. What's to say that your same audience that's on Instagram is on Facebook?

  Bruce Chamoff: Right? You're nodding your head. Right? So you you know that you won't be going to Facebook. However, there might be somebody listening to this episode right now that might say, yo.

  Bruce Chamoff: I like Facebook, and my audience is on Facebook. I'm gonna go there. I'm not gonna go to Instagram. You know, that's what you have to decide as a podcast. Because like I said before, we didn't have social media back in 2,005.

  Bruce Chamoff: Right? Now we have to take it for granted a little bit. Right? A little bit for granted. But when you do that, you still need to decide where is your audience.

  Bruce Chamoff: And I'm gonna say this because a lot of people, they wanna grow. They need to know a little bit about marketing. It's really important. And it's not just about social media marketing. Everybody says social media marketing.

  Bruce Chamoff: It's also about traditional marketing. Where is your audience? What's the target market? And a lot of us think, well, if I go on Facebook, I have there's a 1,000,000,000 Facebook users. They're all in my I'm gonna I'm gonna put something on Facebook, and they're all gonna see it.

  Bruce Chamoff: Right? We know that's not true.

  Mick Hunt: It's not true.

  Bruce Chamoff: Yeah. Instagram, right, even if you have no. You have almost 30,000 followers. Right? What's to say that you put something out on Instagram, are all 30,000 followers gonna see it?

  Bruce Chamoff: No. Right?

  Mick Hunt: Not at all.

  Bruce Chamoff: Right. And maybe some of the people just liked you. They hit the the follow button, but they really hang out on Facebook. A podcaster has to know. And the way you do that is you break down the demographics.

  Bruce Chamoff: Right? What's the age, gender, marital status, education, race, religion, creed, all that stuff? Because when you know those classifications for your audience, then you find out, okay, this particular religion is on this social network. This particular age is on that social network. And then you go to that social network because you know that's where your audience is, and that's how you do it.

  Bruce Chamoff: That's how I do it.

  Mick Hunt: I like it. Alright. So now let's go to step 3, and you wanna monetize and start monetizing your podcast. What's Bruce's tips for monetization?

  Bruce Chamoff: Well, shameless plug. Hope you don't mind. And if you don't like it, you can edit it out. But on May 9th, I do have a webinar on 10 ways to monetize your podcast. So if anybody wants to come to that, I can give the link.

  Bruce Chamoff: But I'll give a couple of quick tips. A really good way is for to get into monetization for your podcast is affiliate marketing, affiliate programs. We hear about that all the time, and it they are moneymakers. What but what but there's a caveat because everything we do there's a caveat. Right?

  Bruce Chamoff: We can't just do things. So you have to know what are the best products or services to sell to your audience. Right? And technically, you're not selling, but you're you're putting an affiliate link in your show notes or you might be using a host red ad that you talk about, oh, hey. Go to this website.

  Bruce Chamoff: Go to Amazon. Here's the link, and you put your affiliate link right in it. And your affiliate ID will track you and every sale you get, and you get a commission.

  Mick Hunt: I love commission.

  Bruce Chamoff: Yes. And I've I've I've nine other ways. I mean, I could talk about it in my webinar. But I will give one more is paid advertisements. And we have all this on the World Podcast Network, so when you log into the portal, we give you monetization opportunities automatically.

  Bruce Chamoff: But let's say that and I'll give you a very good example. MommyCast. Have you heard of them? I have. Gretchen, I forgot her last name, but MommyCast, her podcast came out in 2,005.

  Bruce Chamoff: And back then, this was unheard of. I believe she made $1,000,000 from a Pampers commercial. Wow. Okay? Mommy cast Pampers.

  Bruce Chamoff: And, again, that was targeted. Right? She had mothers, maybe some newborn babies, you know, new new mothers, maybe some mothers that had toddlers, but the Pampers was right there smack in the middle perfect. And she made a $1,000,000 off of that. K?

  Bruce Chamoff: Now I don't wanna mislead anybody. Not everyone's gonna pay you a $1,000,000, but she had a very good following. And I forgot the manufacturer who makes Pampers. I think it's Procter Gamble. But whatever the the company was, they believed in her, and she monetized.

  Bruce Chamoff: And that's 2,005.

  Mick Hunt: Wow. Okay. Alright. So we've talked about monetization, and you have a webinar coming up. And I'll make sure sure that the links are there for everyone that's listening.

  Mick Hunt: Last part of that question is, how do I start ranking? Right? And I know that Spotify and Apple have their different algorithms, and I've been very fortunate to have a very new podcast and and ranking in the top 10 in in one category, 15 in another category. And I'm not gonna say I figured anything out because I haven't. I think it's just I've had amazing guests in those followings, and and that's been the key to the success.

  Mick Hunt: Right? But for other folks, how do they or is it possible for for them to rank? This is also why I say everybody shouldn't have a podcast. If ranking is your thing, like, it's it's not a guarantee. But what does Bruce think about ranking and and how folks can ultimately get there?

  Bruce Chamoff: When I say is don't worry about ranking, I mean, it's nice to be ranked. It's nice to be highly ranked. But if you focus on getting highly ranked, you're probably going to be a little bit more how can I say, not you particularly, but insensitive to your audience? Absolutely. Because the audience should always be the first thing.

  Bruce Chamoff: But if you treat your audience the right way, your rankings will rise. So I first wanna say, make sure you understand your audience and make them happy, and make them come back for more. So here's one way that Apple does it, and this I know for a fact, Apple, just like Google, looks at repeat visitors. Put out one podcast episode, and let's say you have 200 people listening to that episode in the next week. And then they really like you, they wanna hear more from Mick Unplugged.

  Bruce Chamoff: They come back and they're listening to the next episode and the next episode after that. Well, they are a true fan of yours because they're listening to more than one episode. Right? Apple has some solid data on that, and that is more valuable than, let's say, a first time visitor because that's not a repeat visitor. So that's one thing.

  Bruce Chamoff: And the ways you could do that is you can actually physically tell the audience, if you like my podcast or you like this episode, we're coming out with another one next week on this particular day. Make sure to tune in. Right? Now the other part of that is come out with your episodes every single week on the same day. So don't put an episode out on Monday and the next episode out will be out next week on Thursday.

  Bruce Chamoff: If you have Monday, every single week on Monday, right, or twice a week, fine. 2 days, but make it the same days because this also lets your audience know that first of all, you have consistency, and they know to expect when that episode is gonna be published. And really, that's a really good way of ranking because now you're going to increase those repeat visits, repeat listens just to make sure that there's a little bit of a fallacy in the definition of a download. A lot of people come to me on the podcast network and they say, well, I get downloads. I keep telling them, you will not get downloads, but you will get listens.

  Bruce Chamoff: I don't think anyone downloads. I mean, it's it's kinda weird. I don't I never quite got that. Everybody says download my podcast. No.

  Bruce Chamoff: Nobody downloads your podcast. Yeah. Listen to it. I mean, I'll you know, because there are so many mobile apps now that will let you listen to a podcast through the podcast itself or the RSS feed. Right?

  Bruce Chamoff: Because there are a lot of apps that actually will read the RSS feed and show you what the podcast file itself is called an enclosure. It will show the enclosure, and you just hit the play button. So either way, as long as you get those listens, Apple will pick up on that. And that also comes from some of the technical things they do in the back end, like your IP address. If you log in, you have a username.

  Bruce Chamoff: You know, they they have all that stuff. So that, in my opinion, are the 2 tips to get high rankings.

  Mick Hunt: Totally agree. And and you hit on something that I think is important, especially for the seasoned podcasters. Keep your audience first and foremost. Right? Like, keep them front of mind because that's who's contributing to your rankings.

  Mick Hunt: Right? So for me, you know, I always make sure the guests are highlighted, that they can tell their story, and that we're always giving actionable items for people because I think that's what listeners want. I don't care what the genre of your podcast is. Right? Like That's true.

  Mick Hunt: You have to have a reason for them to come back and want to continue to come back. And so for me, it's always about actionable tips that they can walk away with. So I'm I'm glad that you hit on that. You are my guy, Bruce. I

  Bruce Chamoff: appreciate you. Thank you.

  Mick Hunt: Alright. So where can people find and follow Bruce? And for my podcaster friends that are listening to this because this episode is for you. Right? I wanna make sure that you are connected to Bruce because Bruce is an amazing human being.

  Bruce Chamoff: So are you, Mick. Amazing. You're awesome.

  Mick Hunt: So where can we find Bruce?

  Bruce Chamoff: Well, we just got on to LinkedIn. So we're brand new on LinkedIn. It's only been about a week. It is instagram.com. I think it's just world podcast network.

  Bruce Chamoff: So, yeah, I it looks I know it when I'm in front of my computer, but I'm in a different computer right now.

  Mick Hunt: Oh, just World Podcast Network.

  Bruce Chamoff: And also LinkedIn. Look up Bruce Chamoff on LinkedIn. I also do have a LinkedIn group called the podcast support community, which has over 2,000 podcasters. Oh. So you you can join there.

  Bruce Chamoff: Oh, I see. I wouldn't be already on it. Yeah. I think you're on it now, Mick. Right?

  Mick Hunt: Okay. I was gonna say maybe I'd I haven't seen any post come out of that one yet. So I'll I'll be able to look at it. Maybe I'll contribute to the post for us.

  Bruce Chamoff: Yeah. LinkedIn, Instagram, and look me up on Facebook.

  Mick Hunt: Alright. Ladies and gentlemen, my friend, mister Bruce Chamoff. Bruce, I appreciate you for being on the show. And for everyone listening, remember, your because is your superpower. Unleash

  Intro: it. Thanks for listening to Mick Unplugged. We hope this episode helps you take the next step toward the extraordinary and launch stay inspired, and

  Mick Hunt: stay unplugged.

  Intro: Stay inspired, and stay unplugged.